Show Notes

Ethical selling. Sales EQ vs IQ. Culture building for sales teams.

John “Small Mountain” Hill, founder of Adapted Growth, has been selling, in one form or another, for over 20 years. He’s worked in numerous industries and sold everything from cheap perfume to costly medical devices.

In his coaching, John combines a motivational mindset with actionable, data-driven processes, a method he uses to coach more than eight sales teams internationally.

Join me today while John and I have a conversation about, well, having conversations.

Contact John:

Website: https://adaptedgrowth.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnblanehill/

Facebook: @adaptedgrowth

Twitter: @adaptedgrowth

Instagram: @adaptedgrowth

YouTube: @salesthrowdown

Publication: http://bit.ly/SFSkindle

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Watch the Podcast Here:

Hey there. Thanks for listening and welcome to the marketing matchmaker podcast. If you're looking to grow your business, increase your revenue and scale your impact all while staying true to who you are and the people you serve. This is the show for you. I'm Jennifer Tamborski, digital marketing strategists, fractional CMO, and founder of Virtual Marketing Experts. My team and I work with six and seven figure coaches, consultants, and online entrepreneurs who are tired of playing the guru game of one size fits all marketing. They're ready to create a business and marketing strategy that actually builds relationships with their ideal clients creates massive shifts in their business and rapidly increases their revenue. As your marketing matchmaker, I'm going to help you find the perfect marketing match for you. This show will teach you how to reach your ideal client, connect with your audience, build that perfect relationship and generate more revenue. All through a process I like to call dating your ideal client. Now let's go have some fun!

Jennifer (01:14):

Welcome back to Marketing Matchmaker. I am super excited about today. I have an awesome guest John Hill, who is here to talk to us about sales, all things sales, which I know for a lot of you. Um, the whole point of your marketing is to get to that sales call. So this will be a fantastic conversation for us. So as we get started, I'm just gonna give a quick intro to John. So John Small mountain hill is the founder of adapted growth. Has he's been selling in one form or another for over 20 years. And he's worked in numerous industries and sold everything from cheap perfume, costly medical devices. You even with all that experience, it wasn't until after he entered the small business slash entrepreneurial world in 2013 that he realized he had a lot of room for improvement. He's a voracious reader, uh, seeker of knowledge, John began learning everything he could of to about selling and communications to make his sales better.

Jennifer (02:26):

That led him to a passion for helping others find their own levels of growth. He started his sales consulting company in 2018 and began coach co-hosting a podcast sales Throwdown, which I'm going to have to listen to because sales is always an interesting endeavor. In 2019 in his coaching, John combines a motivational mindset with actionable data driven process, a method he uses to coach more than eight sales teams internationally. He's also written an upcoming sales improvement book, which I highly recommend everyone run out and get with plans for even more books already in development when he is not helping others sell more efficiently and authentically John enjoys spending time with his family biking, martial arts and poker and traveling. That was a really long introduction. Welcome John.

John Hill (03:29):

Wow. Yeah.

Jennifer (03:32):

Awesome. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me.

John Hill (03:36):

Thank you for having me on this is gonna be awesome. I think

Jennifer (03:39):

Sales is definitely something that people struggle with a lot. They're either really afraid of it. Or they do it really poorly.

John Hill (03:50):

Yes. And often both there's some Venn diagram there and there's some overlap between those things of, of, of those things both happening at this same time. So yes. Uh that's that's what we find. And, uh, the, you, you kind of take for granted the things that you do right. And being no exception to that. Um, I didn't really realize how this is gonna sound weird. Like good. I had kind of gotten at forcing myself to go have these conversations because I am an introvert, not an extroverted person. I can make myself pretend to be one and that requires other things right. Balance and you know, batteries, recharging and all of these things that people talk about. And so we do that for other people because I'd spent a lot of time in, in sales because I really like customer service, but like customer service doesn't really pay very much. Sales pays like a lot more in waiting tables. You made good money, but the hours were terrible. So sales it is let's go do this thing. And like wireless sales is where I first started. I didn't wanna sell cars because Ugh, sales, cars.

John Hill (05:00):

And, uh, and so was selling cell phones and just kind of continued to work at it and work at it and work at it and was always about sell more, pitch everybody, everybody should know. And then when we moved into medical devices, it was a different kind of approach all together. It was very different. And you are forming these like super long-term relationships with these people who don't really wanna have relationships with you because they're, they're they're doctors and surgeons and they don't like sales people. And so it's like this uphill clawing battle the whole time. And then to move from that into like a small business realm, which is very much about like don't sell to everybody, like realize what makes us great and qualify for that, because if they don't see value in that, they're going to hate us. And it was the biggest struggle because I was like, Hey, I can close this deal.

John Hill (05:55):

I think we can get this. And he goes, dude, stop, go. Find someone else go, just stop. You know? And, and he is like, he's like, go get really good nos. And I was like, what did, so my business partner is this amazing guy, amazing guy. Uh, and he just was very thoughtful about it. Right. And we got to work out together in Kung Fu, which is how we met. And so we would kind of take these Kung Fu things of like reps and trying things and like, Hey, what happened if we did this kind of stuff? Right. And so we would kind of play with that. And so it became like, just something I was good at, right? Yeah. Like, like just having conversations in ways that people open up versus the opposite of that, where it's friction full and you gotta fight and, you know, do you think you need any help?

John Hill (06:40):

Well, no I don't, but if it's cheap enough, how much does it cost? And then, oh my God, the conversations are brutal, you know? Um, and so that was the thing for the next three, three years and split up decided I was gonna just gonna consult on helping people build CRMs, because I love a CRM. It really helps you prove when you know the right questions to ask. Well, come to find out. Most people don't think about sales as a process driven thing that you can improve at when you like, know the stages and stuff. And like, that's kind of a unique thing to me. So that was rather interesting. And, oh, huh. Interesting people don't think like I do. Okay, great. We have to figure out how to talk about this. Right. Cause the first like year and a half, I was like, you want a sales process, which no one wanted to hear about at all. Jennifer, I promised like, no,

Jennifer (07:23):

Absolutely not.

John Hill (07:25):

That sounds horrible. Yeah. And they're like, they're like, are you making funnels? No, I'm not making funnels. I, I wanna help you have like really great conversations and I wanna show you how to improve that. Like, and huh. You know, you're either born a salesperson or you're not. And so huge struggle of like trying to figure out how to talk about my stuff in a way that like makes me excited to do the work, but also gets them excited about wanting to have the conversation. Cause I'm just really great at making things sound like a lot of effort. Like I like, like I'm not the, like I'm not the person who's gonna make it sound easy. Uh, but like once you've admitted that like it's not easy and you to like make it as like as good as you can. Like I'm the guy you want to talk to. Right. Um, but the it's, I love marketing and branding because I, since I now know all, all of these things, I can use it and how I talk about myself and how I, you know, schedule my meetings and my appointments and stuff. That way people understand what they're getting into when they're having and meeting with me.

Jennifer (08:22):

We've, we've had conversations before. And one of the things that we were talking about is that your marketing really influences the sales process in and of itself. And if you do the marketing well, it makes the sales process a lot easier. Right.

John Hill (08:37):

Um, you know, the, the, the idea is that like, right. I think, I think most people on the planet would love to be able to market all the way to an outcome. Right. Never have to involve a salesperson. Right. This, this have great marketing, great process. Everything is in line and everything. Well, that's, that's fantastic. Right. Um, when you can get there, it's awesome until you become very concerned about quality, right. Are these people that we're bringing in, are they having great outcomes, right? Or are they potentially not taking any kind of action and then torching us online because it wasn't just a great fit. Right? So maybe, maybe we need a way of weeding out some of the people who are not gonna have a great experience with. Right. And so then all of a sudden sales becomes an admissions process, right? Like, yeah. And the only thing, the only thing that has changed is you now have a standard that people have to hit versus let's go sell to everybody, which is what people think sales is. And that's not what it is. Right,

Jennifer (09:33):

Right. It's, it's that whole, when you try to talk to everybody, nobody hears you. Right. When you get really good at your messaging and you're just talking to that one person that is your ideal client and move them through the process. And that's what a whole funnel is about. Right. Getting that person at the top and moving them down. Through the stages to weed, the ones that aren't gonna be good for a sales call

John Hill (09:59):

For sure. Because the, you know, it's so cliche, but like time is a non-renewable resource. Right. And people, people love this idea of like sales people working for commission only because I don't know where this originally came from. But like this idea, like no one likes sales people because the vibe they get off and how like opportunistic they can be. But you're also gonna put these people into prime territory to like make their own rules by making them commission only. So like, you don't really get the opportunity to like make them part of your culture and make them part of the standard and stuff like that. So it, it's a very like kind of competing mindset of, of like what sales people are really there for and what they're supposed to do. And the optics of it from everybody else are just terrible. Like, you know, uh, a friend of mine who works at a big, uh, box company.

John Hill (10:46):

And so he'll go in and the people in like the, the, the production area are like, how's the golf course, because in their view, that's how he's spending all of this time. Like, like he's not, he's not getting kicked in the stomach with like nose and beat down and like having to like fight for these relationships. He just like has to be at the golf course cause he's not in the office. Right. So it's always, it's, it's such a fascinating thing cause the views of it are the views of it really impact how you handle it in your business and how you wanna do it.

Jennifer (11:15):

Yeah, absolutely. I, I think, I think your right in that sales people get a bad rap that you have a term called ethical sales. Right. And and I think most people that get a bad rap in sales don't sell ethically. So sure. Can you explain kind of what you mean by ethical sales?

John Hill (11:38):

Yeah. So there, there, there's this concept of like sales stigma and, and sales stigma is that sales people are fake because they, they just want a way to try to talk you into this purchase. Right. And then when like use car sales people, like how good is the item? Are you being sold? You know, all of these things. So the concept of like ethical sailing, ethical selling is around the idea of really taking a consultative role in the sales process. And not so much. I know we can help you give me just a second. It's more, Hey, we are pretty good at a few things. Right. And if you're dealing with these things, we might be able to help you. I'm not really sure yet. Could we have a conversation about where you are? We could talk about these things and then if there's more room to talk about it, we could talk about it.

John Hill (12:22):

But if not, that's okay. Really making it just a, just a collaborative conversation, right? Yeah. Yeah. Some sales coaches, right? Lots of sales coaches don't like this. Right. And the reason that they don't like it is because they are wired to think about relationships, conversation, conflict, all of these things a little bit differently. Right. So they'll begin to do things that are a little bit different in the conversation. Right. As opposed to making those full asks, they'll make them kind of half-asks right. You know, uh, Jennifer, it it's gonna be okay if I have to tell you no, at the end of this thing, that's not the same thing as, Hey Jennifer, if we decide that this is not a fit, would you mind letting me know? Right, there's there, there's a different in how that, how that ask is built. Right. And the people who assume the sale versus people who ask for the sale, which is like a big debate in sales.

John Hill (13:12):

Like do you assume, or do you ask you and largely I, I think that most people should ask. Right. But it comes down to how is that ask done and when you're assuming the sale, what else are you assuming? Kind of thing. Right. So if you're assuming that they want it, you're probably also making some other assumptions about like why they want you, that maybe should be questioned and explored to kind of make sure that we are not wasting anybody's time. So it's, it's about dealing with the fact like very, very upfront that sometimes nos are going to happen because of any number of reasons. So let's see if this should happen. Right. Yeah. What that does is, is it creates a lot of trust because everyone's concern is that the salesperson is just going forward, you know, trying to talk them into something. So by leading with that, you're setting an expectation that you're different from other salespeople. Yeah. Right.

Jennifer (14:02):

And I also think that in my business, I, I work mostly with coaches and I think that's the essential part of, of working with a coach is that they only wanna work with the people that actually they can actually help. Right. They can that's for sure actually move forward. Um, and their sales process should reflect that those coaches that sell anybody that comes through their door, whether or not they can actually help them, I think is where again, you get that bad rap from sales. Yeah.

John Hill (14:39):

Well, you know, now there's this whole kind of like section of the consultant coach. This kind of, and, and this is where you see like a lot of the guru people and stuff like this, and those people have a method, right. There's a reason why they are successful at the level that they are. Um, but there's this thing that we always talked about in martial arts, right? There are some really, really great teachers who cannot explain to anybody why they do or how they do the thing that they do. They were really at practitioner. They're a terrible instructor. Right. And there are some people who were so far the other way. Right. But the people in these schools under these people were like, some of them were having great success. So it's not this concept of, you know, one size fits all like the one, the one perfect thing.

John Hill (15:29):

It's like the, it's like the thing that you're gonna vibe with, the thing that you're gonna like take up and approach and run with, you know? And it's when, when you, when you can build that trust with a prospect, right. By doing little things like saying, Hey, I might have to tell you, no, you might have to tell me no, both of those things are totally okay. Cause I'm not like those other guys. Right. Because, because if you don't say that you're taking it for granted that they know that about you honestly. Right. And when, when, when we look at everybody's inbox and everybody's DMs and everybody's being pitched on everything, why would you take it for granted as opposed to just taking a second and being like, Hey, can we, can we just like get on the same page of like, I'm, I'm not gonna try to like talk into a webinar or anything, you know?

John Hill (16:11):

Like, like, like, like I'm just curious, like how do you do what you do? You know? And, uh, it's so fascinating. Um, because some people still will say no to that. Right. Cause I'm not trying to talk them into it. And the fact that I'm not trying to talk them into anything at all brings up the walls of some people. That's interesting. Some people just don't like networking, right? Like, like you and I met on a networking platform, which is really awesome and unique because a lot of how I think about sales and business development and growth comes from like how, how difficult or easy is it to get to the conversation, to get to the meeting. Right. And sometimes it's very difficult because you wanna have qualifiers. Like if you're a mid-market person, you don't wanna be spending a bunch of with like small market SMB stuff, you just can't do it because it doesn't make sense. So how do you qualify out the SMB stuff, but still keep in the mid-market stuff like there's targeting there's ways you can do that. You can put a person in there to ask the question, you know, there's there's any numbers of ways of doing it, but it's about qualifying to make sure that the person who's taking those calls is not like having to come through nos that we know are going to be nos.

Jennifer (17:19):

Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think that goes for whether you're a solopreneur or you have a sales team having that qualification before they end up on your call. Um, eliminates a lot of that struggle. Right. Then, then it can become a conversation rather than first pre-qualifying them and then having a conversation.

John Hill (17:42):

Yes, exactly. And how, how hard is that qualification process is really, is really the name of the game because you reach out to someone, Hey, I think I can help, you know, do, are you struggling with anything? Nope. Come on Like, like, like let's be honest. Right. But you can't be honest with me because you don't know who I am and you don't know what my intentions are, so. Right. Why would you be honest with me? Like, like let's lean all the way into that, you know? Yeah. There's no really great reason. So when we, when we start from that idea of, I really only wanna make sure that we're going to spend time talking about the details. If the big picture stuff lines up, means that I need people to come to that conversation, like full open and honest and ready to have a conversation without the walls up.

John Hill (18:26):

Yeah. Right. Cause you hit the nail on the head a second ago. When you talked about like coaches and like the uniqueness of selling. Right. My, we, we talked about this in Kung Fu all the time of like the impossible question of, do you have the harshest standards and you have a very small community and you know, you're not living a, a great lifestyle, but like the teaching is good. Right. The, the, the core group is good or you just open it up and you just let everybody in, you know? And like, and like standards are gonna be all over the place and you're not gonna be known for this, but you know, you'll have, you'll have a bigger thing. And so I think of sales and business in that same kind of line all the time. Like if you work with everybody, right. Once it gets past you as a salesperson, so, or entrepreneur, whoever that is like, they're gonna, it's gonna drop off behind you. Right. And if you, if you're lucky enough to have a team, they didn't sign up for all of that. Right. So the better job you can do of disqualifying stuff that doesn't make sense stuff, that's gonna be a nightmare for your team, gonna be a nightmare for you. The longer they'll stay, because the expectations are met, the easier it is on your team. And it also, it, it becomes easier to, to replace yourself eventually as a sales force, right. Because there's some tightness to the qualifying process.

Jennifer (19:38):

Absolutely. So at the beginning of this, um, conversation, you had talked about sales, having a process like, can you explain what you mean by that? With the, for the audience? Like, what is your process or should be the process?

John Hill (19:56):

Great question. You know, the, the thinking is the, the way that I think about it is how do you make it as repeatable as possible? It's just kind of how I think about everything as a poker player, when, when I was playing full-time it was not so much of a out how much can I win? That was super important, but also how much can I limit my losses, limit my risk limit, these areas that I keep ending up in these spots that I'm so confused in. I don't know what decision to make. And like that's costing me money. You know, so I think about things in a very much of that kind of thing. Like repeatability, can you do this a lot? I talk about this with people all the time. I love these like brain teases around the idea of like every, every penny is a coin, but not every coin is a penny kind of deal.

John Hill (20:40):

So when you can think about those kind of loops and those kinds of like circles, right. Of like, kind of like a funnel is going to get smaller as you go along, not every person is going to be needing you. Okay. So you don't need to go around asking everybody for money. Like, like, Hey, you know, how do you, how do you, how do you, you know, how do you price for this? How do you budget for this? Right. That doesn't make any sense. You're gonna waste time having conversations with people who don't wanna share that information with you. Okay. So great. So let's go spend time talking with people who have motivation to change, right? Because if they have motivation to change, great, that's the hard part, getting people to have that conversation with you as a salesperson, because if they view you as a salesperson, they can lie to you.

John Hill (21:22):

They can cus at you, they can do anything on the planet to you because you're like less than human in the eyes of most people. Right. You can just be easily ignored. Yeah. So you have to, you have to build that. And so when you think about sales as a process, right? The, the relationship really starts when you get to like relationship and trust. When they're willing to an, to answer those questions of like, Hey, what are you travelling with? Well, acquisition could be smoother. Yeah. That's different than, well, we can talk about it, but if you're not the cheapest, I don't know. Like, those are defensive statements. Like those, like, those are people who don't really want to have a conversation with you. So you can fight for that appointment. You can fight for that meeting, but you're, you're fighting uphill. Like we just have to think about the effort being extended to talk that person into that meeting.

John Hill (22:08):

When there's somebody else who wants to have a meeting with someone like you, you just know, you just have to, and this is the thing that I picked up from marketing is you have to know how to talk about yourself in a way that makes people wanna have the conversation with you. And then you also have to be always iterating how you how you talk about that. It's, it's like a little bit like standup comedy, I, which is like a thing that I study. Like, they will say the joke over and over and over again in different audiences. And like, watch it bomb just to like, figure out like how it bombed, like, like, like the failures so part of the process. Right. And so sometimes I'll be given my, my pitch, my 30 second commercial, what I do for people. And I'll just see it just go shoom just right past them.

John Hill (22:48):

And I'm like, cool. I need to work on that. Right. Like, and it's, it's that it's, it's, it's like that, that's the marketer in me. I, I wanna have like, those really cool conversations that start from a point of like mutual understanding and awareness. I think that that's really cool as opposed to like the salesperson in me, which is like my kind of like mother tongue, like, like, I, I think as a sales person, I try to act as a marketer. So that way I'm not just sales ego. Like I can talk everybody into anything with enough time, which is how most sales people think about it, which is just not efficient. Like, it's just not a great use of time.

Jennifer (23:22):

For real, I mean, reality is we all only have so many hours in the day. Absolutely. And if we're spending it, talking to people who have no real desire to move forward yeah. Then, you know, like I just did a black Friday special this last, um, last month in, in November, which in it, they had to take a quiz to qualify for the special part of it. Like it was a free on a service, but the quiz dumped them into three buckets of qualified, not qualified, really, really, really qualified. And we really want that person to, you know, kind of, kind of areas. And it's the not qualified people. Like I had someone they ended up in the not qualified bucket. They still, they scheduled a discover call. I kept that discover call to 15 minutes, because reality is, is they weren't qualified to begin with, why am I going to spend hours or 30 minutes or whatever on the phone with them

John Hill (24:26):

Exactly. Yes. Like the marketers think, think that way so, so much, because there's always this like kind of volume component in the way that they're thinking about it. Right. Um, I talk about this with people because like sales mindset and marketing mindset, they compete. They're not, they're not outlined for the same kind of outcome. Right. Salesperson is like, cool worked so hard to get this meeting. And it's just one On One you and me? I we're here. You're not leaving. Like I, like, I gotta find an opportunity because I work so hard to get here. Right. Which is kind of like sunk cost bias. Right. You know, you, when, when you've worked so hard at something, you won't even shut it off because there's, you know, you've put too much time into it, even though there's potentially another opportunity that could be way better.

John Hill (25:06):

That's that's sales like 1 0 1. Right. And then you're, you're making too many proposals. You're, you're jumping around, you're too available. And then all of a sudden you're like kind of triggered and you're like, you know what? I deserve this, you know, how much time I put into this relationship. And now you've now you're now all your decision making is flawed because that is not actually something you are owed. Right? And so when you can have a bit of a process, right. Have some mental check marks be thinking about like, Hey, like where does this stuff not make sense? Like, why should we not continue with this kind of conversation? Because ethical selling is about really thinking about everything in play. Right. The other priorities, everything else that's going on. Like, just like, I want to say like, Hey, you could always be looking at sales and marketing and like trying to see if there's other campaigns, avenues, ways to tweak and improve and stuff.

John Hill (25:54):

There's also a thousand other things to go do whenever you're running a business. Like I need to go do a product improvement on my course. I'm like way behind on it. And I'm mad at myself, you know, but you know, competing priorities, being what they are. So knowing that I wanna know, I don't just wanna talk about this thing. I wanna talk about everything else. That's going on. Like, how's your hiring? How's your culture? Like, how's your other stuff, right? Like, like how's like off time. How are these weekends? You know, like to me, all that stuff is super important because you know, you're gonna push yourself in this lane. And so you have to have a balance outside of that lane or else you're gonna burn out.

Jennifer (26:29):

Yeah. I, I totally agree. I hit that wall. Not too terribly long ago of, oh, holy crud. Things have to change so I think we all do as business owners, like you hit that wall, you get to make those changes. And then your business goes to that next level, but it's, it's that wall that sometimes painful. Um, let's talk a little bit about your book. Tell me, tell the audience all about it and, and what it is that you're teaching them in it and all of the goods.

John Hill (26:59):

Awesome. Yeah. So, uh, the book is called Selling From Scratch, and it is on Amazon. And the, by the time this comes out, we should have the Audible version up. It's gonna be an Audible exclusive for at least the initial part. And we, it was kind of a result of our COVID pivot during COVID people were asking, we started to do placements, trying to of place sales people into these kind of inbound qualifying sales role situations. And so we were doing some placements, some people were saying, John, we want people who are gonna sell like you, we like you. We don't want a salesperson. We want someone like you. And I'm like, well, Hey, here's the deal. I am a salesperson you were one also. And let's go find someone who is also gonna acknowledge that. And the we're all humans and just like, wants to, I like do a good job, you know, like this, this concept of like like hunters versus farmers and everything.

John Hill (27:48):

Like it's so antiquated because it, it just terrible motivation is, is really what that comes down to. So, right. Um, during that, it was, I had to come up with, okay, great. What, what is this? Because I've done lots of coaching. I worked with lots of coaches and sales training, and also like performance and other areas and all that has an impact on how I think about selling and the way that I think, and just in general. So I just started writing, um, I was doing a morning show with an accountability partner. We were going live at 7:45 AM every day to kind of just like, you know, how's it going? Uh, struggle. Okay, good. Me too. Okay, cool. What's on the calendar, you know, and just kinda like pushing each other, hold, holding each other accountable, just like, keep going, keep going. Yeah.

John Hill (28:30):

It sucks for everybody keep going. And, uh, it was just writing like 1500 words, 1500 words, 3000 words today. Right. And it was just, I'm gonna do it, talking myself into it and then just making myself do it. And then I live with my, uh, editor. She is amazing. We've been together for 18 years. Um, and so I said, here's a word baby. Like, I, I think this is something, and I didn't know if it was gonna be a course or a book. And she was like, this is definitely a book, not a course. Don't do this as a course, that's a nightmare for everybody. Okay. And so, uh, then I was like, cool. And so I, I did the thing that I, I was there reach out to my network and I said, Hey, does anyone have any connections with like, like a book coach got connected to amazing woman named Sue who was willing to kind of help us out for like, of like the amazing partner rate of free because of already having an editor already have having done so much work.

John Hill (29:23):

And, uh, she was hugely helpful of just kind of helping us get through this thing of like, not overthinking it, which is something I always do. And, uh, we got, we got the thing done, which is kind of surprising cause uh, I wanted, I, I already am like, you know what? We can improve this thing, you know, which is just so, uh, the book is out. It is a way to think about selling as a process driven activity. And not a thing you try real hard at because you're born to do it or you're not in the, in these, in these things. It's, it's really built to kind of question how people think about sales, personalities, uh self-awareness and really kind of challenge people. And what's cool is I I have people who I've known forever and I give 'em the book and they call me and they say, dude, I'm not even through the intro. And I had to call you, what do you mean? I've been wrong the whole time. What do you, what do you mean? One of my friends, who's a Kung Fu instructor. He realized that because of his view of sales and his view of the sacredness of this art that we do, if he tried to sell it or market it, it would be him selling out.

John Hill (30:37):

Like imagine trying to grow a thing that has at a high attrition rate, uh, is very hard to like wrap your mind around because it's habit driven and people, you know, want quick, easy fixes. Right. And like it's hard to grow a martial arts gym. And so imagine having that struggle and then also having that mindset of, if I'm trying to sell this, I'm a sellout.

Jennifer (30:59):

That's really hard. And you know what, I think there's probably more people out there like that than you think. Like, I think there's a ton of people out there that think that.

John Hill (31:10):

Lot of the coaches, unfortunately. Yes. Right. Yeah. You know, there's, there's this idea of, well, you know, attraction marketing and just kind of being present and stuff like that. And I think that there's, there's value to that, but you also kind gonna have to be thoughtful of, are you building the conversation in a way that is like making it easy for them to ask?

Jennifer (31:29):

Right. Well, and I actually, during a networking call, uh, a couple of weeks ago I was talking to a coach and she's like, you know, what I found is that most women, especially, but most people need to be offered. Like they won't ask to work for, with you. You would get to offer it to them and then they can say yes or no, but without that offer, they go away. Which I think in the coaching world is something that a lot of coaches don't do. Like they, again, it's back to that assume the sale, they're so amazing, that these people are going to ask to work with them and that's,

John Hill (32:09):

It, it there's because I, oh, I love this conversation so much because like, I think of everything just like on a range, right. Cause there is that range of that pushy, overly pushy, I'm the guru I'm gonna help you as a coach. Right. And then we also have the other side of this thing, which is, you know, what, if you want it, I'm here, you know, which is a remarkably difficult business to grow as we've been discussing for all the reasons that we know, because lots of people mean well, right. You know, talking about like word of mouth referrals, right? Like lots of people mean to go tell someone else that they know how much they like working with me. I know they do because they like man, John I'm, I still need to do that introduction for you. Hey, absolutely. Would love it when you can get to it. Right. And they, and it's just, I'm just keep prompting and keep prompting. They mean well, but at some point you gotta, you, you, you might have to go do something else.

Jennifer (33:01):

It's not their job. I mean, reality is as much as our clients love to work with us, it's not their job to that.

John Hill (33:07):

That's for sure.

Jennifer (33:09):

They have enough on their plate so we may be a thought in their head in the moment that they're having a conversation. But if someone mentions something 3 weeks ago, you know, whether they remember...?

John Hill (33:23):

For sure. And like there, when we just think about things on a range, right. You don't have to be "this". To, to be more consistent, more repeatable, in a better spot than most of the people who are on in this method, you can be proactive. Like, Hey, if you know, just, just by zeroing in, right? Like once again, the thing that I think shuts down most people is a, a kind of like introverted nature because these guys don't have any problem knocking down any door on the planet. But here, like most people aren't that person and most sales training is built for these kinds of people because these, the people that have done it. So our sales training starts from that place of like, who are you fundamentally first? Yeah. Right. Let's talk about that because we're all gonna view these things differently. The most direct way is always going to win, but cold callings, a nightmare for most people. So, start there.

Jennifer (34:17):

An introvert’s never going to cold call and introverts very rarely even going to go to the networking event to have that initial conversation with anybody. So, um, understanding that and understanding, I think there's also this premise that just because you're introverted, cause I'm also introverted, but just because you're introverted that you're shy and I agree they're not the same. Like there's two different things. So getting over yourself as an introvert and forcing yourself out there to network to, you know, do that, I will say I will never cold call. That's not in me to do, but, that's what marketing is for. Right?

John Hill (35:02):

The, the Kung Fu practitioner in me was the guy who was able to kind of talk myself into cold calling and, and into a lot of this kind of like this mindset shift that you kind of have to go through. And there's a, there's all when to get to greatness, I firmly believe, you know, mastery means that you have to go through a shift of how you think about it. Right. And in marketing, like the, the one that comes to mind that I talk about all the time is you can have a really big list, but your engage list is really the thing that you need to go hang your hat on. Cause that's the thing that's actually gonna like make the phone ring, drive some revenue and stuff. Right. So, so like what, what, what do you wanna brag about? What do you wanna talk about?

John Hill (35:40):

Like, like let's just start right there. And then sales is the same way. I don't want to talk anybody into, into anything. Right. Because I definitely feel that thing. I would, I would sit in the classroom of my sales coach and I would see these people who would come in and they're, and they're forced to be there because like the come company's got an agreement and they're a new hire and they come in and they think they've got it all figured out and they're just are like not bought in with body language. You can just see it arms, cross scowling, just flipping. They never know where we are. And I am just the opposite. I am soaking this stuff in I'm like, I'm like Seminar Stan, I'm so excited every week to be in there learning this stuff. Because like, I just think of it as I'm just, I improving my communication skills. Like sales is just the ROI mechanic behind that. And so like, I was I'm like, how do you not get excited about this? You know? And they're like, bro. Uh, and I'm like, oh, I used to be that person. I get it. Like I like, I get it. Like when you just think about it as let's just so let's just go get no's.

Jennifer (36:40):

Go for the no, yeah, yeah. That's that's a definite I've heard it a lot in the sales community. Just go for the, no, you have to get, I don't know, a hundred no's today.

John Hill (36:51):

Whatever, and, and like what's so funny is once you find a method of that, that works for you, it, it, it it's like Kung Fu like, like Kung Fu is like a, is like a mindset shift. It is a way of like fighting with compromise. Right? So you might be a, might be very great close range, but if someone gets behind you, you're just done. Right. So like, okay, like those are trade offs you might be willing to make. Right. So you go study that art. So sales is the same way. So I don't wanna talk anybody into anything. Right. Because there's this, there's this stigma of over setting the expectations, right. The sales person will do anything to close the deal and then everyone else has to deliver. And it's a nightmare for everybody involved, like, that's the concern.

John Hill (37:34):

And so, okay, great. How do we build a sales process that allows people be stripped out on the very front end, like before money changes hands before people get involved and your marketing can do that. But marketing is, is a series of assumptions you have made about the people that you're trying to talk to. And yeah. If you've never talked to those people and you're slightly off, you don't get not gonna get quality. Yeah. Yeah. And then you gotta have the awareness and the mindset of, okay, cool. We failed the test. What does that failure mean? And then, and then going in there and like trying to find the way to improve it. Whereas if you can put a salesperson there to someone who like likes to have some conversations and you can kind of like, show them, Hey, if they say this and this and this tell 'em we can't help 'em. Oh, okay. Interesting. As opposed to like trying to say, Hey, you only get paid when, when you get a yes. Right? Like we like, like we just have to acknowledge that, that the, that these people are being incentivized from different points of view and they're going to carry out their jobs differently.

Jennifer (38:35):

Absolutely. Absolutely. So as a small business owner, I think because sales generally fall into their laps first.

John Hill (38:46):

Absolutely. For sure. Yeah.

Jennifer (38:50):

Figuring out a process in your business that's repeatable for your sales team, for, when you get to that level, um, what would be the first step? Like what was the first thing that, that you suggest that they do to, to start that process?

John Hill (39:07):

Great, great question. That a lot of what happens is like when you're trying to hire sales for like very early on, uh, we don't do a great job of knowledge transfer just like, as, as adults, right? I mean, teaching is a teaching is a difficult job. And as a, as a guy who's done Kung Fu for a very long time, a 400 year old art and has had to teach it to like lots of different people at various levels of like understanding and acknowledgement and awareness and personalities. Uh, sometimes you can say this same thing to the same or to two different people and one person will get it. And one person won't. Yeah. And you can, you can choose that moment to say, you know what? This is your fault. Or you can say, you know what, I need to find a way to communicate this to this person.

John Hill (39:49):

And so coming from the Kung Fu community, like everybody was on this way. Right. So you'd go find someone else, Hey, Hey, how do you explain this? Will you, you come over here and stuff. And so when you it's, it's difficult to, to transfer this knowledge to, to like another human, right? Yeah. Especially whenever, like most people I talk to will say, well, John, I'm, I'm an owner. I'm not a salesperson. That's what you do. And it's like, okay, cool. When we're starting there, you're making an about you as a human and an individual and we can't recreate you. Right. Other, otherwise you would've done that. And you would've called me because people don't like to talk to the sales coach. Like, like that's just kind of how it works. So we need to figure out what should they say no to like, what don't don't ever come ask me if we should say yes to this.

John Hill (40:38):

Right. And by, and by starting from that place of no, with these owners. Okay, great. What if they have a dollar? Well, of, of course not John, I'm not gonna work with someone for a dollar. Okay, great. Cool, cool. What about $500? Uh, no. Well, no, that's okay. I'm cool. Should they come talk to you if this like, and really kind of into that kind of detail, because if you don't give them that much clarity, you're just creating this kind of like bad messenger ferry of a salesperson. Who's just kind of running back and forth. Right. You see this in the car lots. Right, right. They, they say, okay, cool. How much can you afford? I can afford, you know, $300 a month. Okay. Let me go ask the finance guy. Right. And they leave for a bit and then they come back, Hey, we can't do it.

John Hill (41:19):

What else can you do? Well, we can do this and now, but they're just faring information back and forth. Right. Cause they're like acting as kind of like a qualifying buffer. Right. Are you really invested? Are you gonna say no, if it's $400 a month, you know, and stuff like that, but the more empowered they are to say, okay, cool. We can't do that. And I get it. I'm just gonna save you some time. You should go home. If that, if that's what she can do, you should go home kind, kind of deal. That's being more ethical as opposed to, well, let me just run out the clock because I know if I keep you here long enough, you're gonna get hungry.

Jennifer (41:50):

You'll just give in.

John Hill (41:51):

Yeah, exactly. Any deal starts to look good when you have shot down the first seven successfully and you're starting to get hungry and your kid is crying and like the, and like you've already been here for as long as you are. It doesn't have to be that way. Right. And with something specific like coaching, like you have to want to change, like absolutely. Yeah. And I, I, I didn't, I didn't really get this for like a long time and I would just kind of be like, you know what? I can help everybody. And I do think that I can help most people, but there's, there's a sub segment of that population that I can have really great outcomes with. So as opposed to like trying to figure out like how I'm gonna help all these people, when I'm already tuned to help these people, let's just focus on these people.

John Hill (42:30):

And, and even introverted people when they have that kind of clarity, you are not trying to get a yes from everybody. You're not even trying to get a meeting with everybody. You're trying to figure out if a meeting makes sense based upon the things that you're great at. And if they don't wanna have a meeting with you because they don't see any kind of value in talking about the things that you're great at, you know exactly where you are. And they'll find someone who does see value in having like, and now all of a sudden, like is kind of more approachable. Right? Cause it's not like you're trying to get a, you're not, you know, it's, it's hard to take a bunch of no's. Right. I mean it's difficult.

Jennifer (43:02):

Absolutely. Absolutely.

John Hill (43:04):

You know, you have to frame it the right way for yourself.

Jennifer (43:06):

Sometimes. I think for, for those of us that are in, you know, small business, when you are getting those people on, on the phone that are your ideal client, when it's an easy yes. And that, you know, you would love to work with those people and you get them into your business. That's when you enjoy your business. You know, you said this, I, I know you said this a couple of times, so just for, for clarity, if someone is bringing in the people that you probably wouldn't want to work with, especially if you're a coach and you're working one on one or one to many, clarifying that really does make it so that you enjoyed the job, the business that you've built instead of struggling every day, you know, for sure. Yeah. I always tell my clients, I'm like, when you see that email come in and you're like, oh my God, not this person again. That's the people you don't want. Release them.

John Hill (44:08):

Yeah. Like, uh, it it's so funny because like everyone has got, you know, their story of like firing the client, you know, who is like, you know, the pain, but, and you see it all over social media, you know, but it's like, you know, what, what would be awesome to never be the person who has to share that story? Because like, you are so mindful about it and not too, too hungry. Right. You know, the person who gets emotional is the person who makes the bad decision. Right. Which is why they want you to sit there for that long and it get hungry, cause you're gonna get emotional. You're gonna get, and then you make bad decisions. You make short term decisions. Right. So when, when, when you're aware of that, right? How do you build, how do you build it? So that way the, the emotions are not invested and you are working towards the same outcomes.

John Hill (44:53):

Right. First of all, you have to be really aware that not everybody wants to do that work. And that's okay. And I don't wanna talk you into wanting to do that work if you don't wanna do that work. Right. Yeah. So like, that's why we wrote the book. Right? It it's so funny because the book wasn't even out yet, like, like we were doing pre-reads and every anything else. And I was having a local meeting past couple of years with COVID and everything I've been networking, like more expanded, you know, uh, in like communities and stuff and not so much in my local community. And so I'm having coffee with this woman, another entrepreneur really, really great person. And this other person comes in, who's like running for local office and he's a big wig and real estate person and everything. And we had met before and I couldn't get a meeting with him again afterwards.

John Hill (45:36):

Right. And so, uh, he knows her, they have a quick conversation. He, and he goes, Hey, what are you guys doing? And she goes, well, John just wrote a book and he's telling me about it. And he goes, what do you do? And I said, well, I, I work with people on sales to make sure that, you know, you're not, you know, making it harder than it needs to be. And he goes, will you come in and talk to my team? And you, I, I can tell you how many times I've I've had that same conversation and used those same words and not gotten that outcome because the book was not in existence. Right? Yeah. So it's, it's, it's those, it's those kinds of things. Right. Yeah. The, the, the thing is like, like authority, right.

John Hill (46:19):

Which is a word in marketing. It's also a thing in sales. Right. It's a qualification kind of thing. Are they, do they, do they view you as an authority in the space? Right. And sometimes like, like if you're a coach, sometimes you have to ask that question like, Hey, do you think, think I could help you? Like, do you see this as something that A, you wanna work on and B, that I am, am here to help you with. Cause if not cool. Let's, let's save everybody some time. I don't, I'm not even here to talk you into it. Right. Well, why don't you to send me a proposal? Cause I don't wanna send you a proposal. We don't know enough. I don't, I don't know what you wanna do yet. I don't know. Who's invested. I don't know the stakeholders. I don't, I don't my question.

Jennifer (47:00):

Who wants to spend the time writing up a proposal for somebody who exactly isn't really interested.

John Hill (47:00):

Exactly. Yeah. And then I'm just gonna email you like every week on like an automated thing. That's not actually me, but like, it's kind of like designed to make it look like me. So that way I don't have to be the past. Who's like chasing me down because you know, I, I would rather take a maybe than a, than a clear no, you know, like, yeah. We, we, we kind of build the environment of like needing all of these automations and stuff like that that are used often badly. Right? Sometimes from a, a place of just, uh, what, what's the word? Uh, like just not being aware.

Jennifer (47:38):

Right. Well, I, you know, I think the, the thing that we both have a lot in common is that it's all about building relationships, right? And there's a way to do that through automation, right. Building that awareness with your clients and building it, but it's gotta be really authentic and really real. Um, and you're right. A lot of people do it really badly.

John Hill (47:58):

Well, uh, I, so, uh, I had a coaching call this morning for one, one of my oldest clients. He does commercial insurance. And so by this point he's got a huge network. He's got lots of referrals, introductions, right. And lots of opportunity. And so we're talking about timing and strategy and everything else like this, because it's getting to the point to where his time is really at a premium. Okay. So how can he, how can he maximize his time? Because he's got a newborn and you know, all these other, other competing priorities. So I'm like, great. And he is John. I, I feel like if I hit them kind of too soon to the, a renewal period that everyone knows what I'm doing. And I was like, cool, here's the thing we can talk about. I can, I can, I can show you how to talk yourself into not being concerned about that.

John Hill (48:39):

You can absolutely do. That's gonna take a little bit longer or we can just build you a different follow up point earlier on. So that way you were like maybe reaching out the quarter before, like let's grab lunch. And so that way, when the, when the quarter rolls and you're now in the renewal period, like you've had a lunch, you're gonna feel great. So like, we can build a system that's gonna force you to change, or we can just build a system. That's gonna allow you to be you. We just need to be aware of what, what we're working towards.

Jennifer (49:05):

Yeah. What are, what are your morals and values and all of those things and making your business, us align with that rather than trying to force yourself into, you know, that square peg into a round hole.

John Hill (49:17):

Yeah. You know, and there's, and there's so much little nuance, you know, about, about these things. Right. And I'm coming from the Kung Fu thing. I'm really big about like habit and, you know, avoidance and the things you like to do versus, you know, you're supposed to do, but just like always end up kind of like the last thing on the todo list and absolutely. Yeah. It's like Friday night to like 8:00 PM. And you're like, just, okay, I finally, I'm just gonna do these things, like, Hey, hire someone else to do those things. Right. Like make it really okay. That those things are not things that you wanna do. Right. Exactly. And, uh, coming from Kung Fu, like, like that's how we learned, right. Because, oh, you don't wanna do this. And then you get hit. Right. And so you have to get, like corrected by, by taking the punishment enough times, you know?

John Hill (50:01):

But like the great thing about business is when you can treat it like a process and a system apart, it's like a machined process. You figure out the parts you don't like to do, and you can hire other people to do those things. Now you gotta train people well. Which is my biggest kind of complaint with a lot of the small business stuff, because everyone is saying, outsource your appointment, setting, go hire lead gen and stuff like this, but they don't, they, they either try to get it for the, the cheapest that they possibly can, and there's no actual process or skill or strategy involved with those kinds of people or they're working with someone who has a method that doesn't work for them. Right? Uh, the marketing informs the sales call. Right. So if you are, if you're, if you're a mindset coach, right.

John Hill (50:45):

You need people to, will willingly be there. Right. You can't force an outcome in that kind of realm. And I'm, I'm that same kind of person. So talked to lots of people who wanna lead gen for me. And it's like, okay, cool. What's the guarantee. Can't do it. And if you can only get appointments when there's a guarantee and well, guess what, we just don't need to work together. No, knock against you. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your business or how you're doing or, or anything. You just can't do it for me. Right. Because I'm not gonna, I, I'm not gonna run my business that way. Right. Absolutely. So it, like, you gotta have that awareness, which is why we do personality assessments, like to kind of figure out, like, where are you gonna fidget with your marketer? And like, like where are those things gonna happen? Because you know, marketers have got to be able to get you to the point to where you can close the appointments. Because if, if, if you're, if you're not closing the appointments, this is a cost without a benefit. You can only do that for so long.

Jennifer (51:35):

Yeah. It definitely becomes a, um, an awareness for a lot of, a lot, especially the newer coaches, right? The ones that, you know, it becomes just as frustrating for the marketer. If we're sending you, you know, we have your qualifications, we're sending them the people that you say you want to talk to, and you're unable to close any of them. It's just as much of a frustration from our side as it is from the sales side.

John Hill (52:05):

Well, yeah, the, the frustrating part about that is that like, especially with coaches, right. They're used to word of mouth conversations. Right. And that word of mouth introduction is so powerful. For like short cutting so much of the trust building process, right? You can show up really badly, but if you've been introduced from a word of mouth referral, like there's a, there's a strength to that conversation just as it starts that you're not gonna get in colder more lead gen things. Now, if those are what you're used to, and you start taking meetings on like cold traffic or on lead gen and your only qualifier is they feel different, you're, you're never gonna be able to work with anybody who's gonna be able to generate appointments for you because you don't have a qualification structure in place. You're just responding to like how it emotionally feels in that moment. And if all of your other conversations have trust and these don't, and you gotta fight for these, of course, they're gonna feel different. But you also have to be aware of that. Like they shouldn't be walking in the conversation with as much trust because they, they didn't get there the same way.

Jennifer (53:07):

They come from a whole different perspective. John, it was, this was an awesome conversation and I am super glad that you joined me today. Um, so your book Selling From Scratch. Comes out on Audible when?

John Hill (53:27):

That is in the hand of Bezos. So if there's anyone in this community who knows him, who, who, who, who can get that guy on the phone, I, I would love an introduction. Right. Apparently Leo has got some pull with, with, with Bezos and his girlfriend, you know? Um, but yeah, so, uh, just waiting on an approval from that, uh, if anybody who is listening to this would like a, like a PDF of the book, please reach out to me. I would love to share it with you. I think it's so important for coaches specifically because of the mindset component and the willingness to want the change. There's a uniqueness to coaching that even marketers don't have to deal with because marketing still comes up with a deliverable at the end of the day. So, uh, I love this book for coaches that is helping coaches kind of think about their stuff differently. You are allowed to talk loudly about what you do and wanna see change in other people. And it, and it doesn't mean you're compromising your standards. So would love to share that.

Jennifer (54:16):

That's Awesome. Okay. So I will have all of your contact information in the show notes. So if they, if it's not on Audible yet when the episode comes out, they can absolutely reach out to you for that PDF. Absolutely. Thank you again so much for joining me and for everyone out there. Thank you for listening in, and I hope that you gathered as many nuggets out of this as I did.

Thank You for listening to the Marketing Matchmaker podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, I would love to hear your feedback. Please head over to iTunes and leave a review so we can hear from you. And if you are a coach, consultant, or online course creator who are looking to grow your business, increase your income, and scale your impact connect with me at yourmarketingmatchmaker.com. I look forward to hearing from you.